Sleep
#5311·Tyler MillsOP, 5 days agoAh, I marked my agreement in #5292 a criticism to neutralize yours, since I corrected #5293. But I should have revised it to additionally have the existing criticism no longer apply. I'll make a new revision with that change.
Since you agree that a revision was necessary, I’ve submitted a counter-criticism of #5292 so that this branch of the discussion tree is consistent (#5323). Ideas are immutable; opening a new branch won’t automatically fix broken branches.
The branch now reflects that your action was rational.
Generally speaking, when a revision addresses a criticism, we don’t submit a counter-criticism.
Let me stress ahead of time that this kind of housekeeping may not seem the most fun, but is indispensable in keeping consistent discussion trees. We can learn to enjoy it. We benefit from this kind of housekeeping by being able to look up which ideas we can rationally adopt.
#5292·Tyler MillsOP, 8 days agoWell the device may deal with some noisy neighbors, but sure, a criticism overall. Edited.
Revision done; criticism not needed.
#5320·Tyler MillsOP, 4 days agoInterest 2: This measure of productivity is suspect. By whose yardstick is a day not productive enough? This is itself the source of the anxiety. Just work as much as we can each day without coercion. Asking for any more is foolish.
Interest 1: It's my yardstick. I want to accomplish more, and I know I can (and we do, often, by staying up "too" late). And staying up is working as much as we can each day without coercion. It's stopping and getting ready for bed that requires coercion!
#5318·Tyler MillsOP, 4 days agoInterest 1: Stay up past 16 hours and do more things! Accomplish more, have more fun today and feel like the day was more productive. Some loss of sleep is okay for the sake of accomplishing more, earlier in life.
Interest 2: This measure of productivity is suspect. By whose yardstick is a day not productive enough? This is itself the source of the anxiety. Just work as much as we can each day without coercion. Asking for any more is foolish.
#5317·Tyler MillsOP, 4 days agoPer #5229, here is a debate to find a common preference for the two interests in me.
Interest 2: Go to bed around hour 16, to get the full 8 ours we require for good health and functioning! We regret when we sleep too much less than 8 hours, and the cumulative health impact causes us some background anxiety (which is itself unhealthy).
#5317·Tyler MillsOP, 4 days agoPer #5229, here is a debate to find a common preference for the two interests in me.
Interest 1: Stay up past 16 hours and do more things! Accomplish more, have more fun today and feel like the day was more productive. Some loss of sleep is okay for the sake of accomplishing more, earlier in life.
Per #5229, here is a debate to find a common preference for the two interests in me.
#5243·Benjamin Davies, 12 days agoThis doesn't rule out blue light from other sources disturbing your ability to wind down and fall asleep.
True, I have a lamp that is warm in color, but probably still has some blue in it. I'll consider looking into redder lamps. I still suspect mental stuff is the main issue.
#5245·Benjamin Davies, 12 days agohttps://youtu.be/boWSKR7OrUw?t=627&si=V4UOiSZym6i0ZhjO
From 10:27 onwards, this video goes over a variety of diet related elements that affect sleep. Might be useful.
Checking this out, thanks!
#5241·Benjamin Davies, 12 days agoDiet isn't ruled out just by comparing a large dinner with an empty stomach before bed.
You've said that you often put off eating and struggle to eat as much as you intend to. If you're regularly under-eating or going long stretches without food, that may be keeping adrenaline and cortisol elevated into the evening, making it harder to wind down, fall asleep and stay asleep.
That could also explain why you're physically tired but still mentally alert and able to keep working at night.
Good reasoning. But I don't go long stretches without eating (no more than 4 or 5 hours), and my weight is stable (or growing, depending on goals), so I can't be undereating in general.
Revised again because #5234 has been addressed and no longer applies
Interesting. But I would guess it only works well for constant sounds. The sensor has to read the waveform to create one that cancels it. Will not do much for short impulses of sound, which are the main offender (my current neighbors are okay, for the record).
Interesting. But I would guess it only works well for constant sounds. The sensor has to read the waveform to create one that cancels it. Will not do much for short impulses of sound, which are the main offender (my current neighbors are okay, for the record).
#5299·Dennis Hackethal, 7 days agoNot to be nitpicky, especially since you ended up agreeing, but #5234 now has a pending criticism (yours), yet you acted on the idea. (Or rather, on the suggestion implied by it.) Acting on an idea with pending criticisms is technically the definition of irrationality on V.
I’m purposely not marking this a criticism so the flags don’t flip.
What’s wrong with using melatonin indefinitely?
AFAIK it creates no physical dependence, you don’t build a tolerance, and it’s cheap. What’s not to love?
AFAIK it creates no physical dependence and you don’t build a tolerance.
#5233·Dennis Hackethal, 13 days agoWhat’s wrong with using melatonin indefinitely?
AFAIK it creates no physical dependence, you don’t build a tolerance, and it’s cheap. What’s not to love?
I was wrong to submit this criticism in this form; it should be only about the lack of dependence. Otherwise the criticism chain is inverted for #5203.
#5233·Dennis Hackethal, 13 days agoWhat’s wrong with using melatonin indefinitely?
AFAIK it creates no physical dependence, you don’t build a tolerance, and it’s cheap. What’s not to love?
What’s not to love?
#5203 already says: causes people to wake up early. (Can corroborate.)
#5288·Tyler MillsOP, 8 days agoIt strikes me that I may have some confusion around compromise. There's an idea (from who/where? Gemini says Brett Hall...) that a compromise can actually be bad, because it is a new theory that no one was advocating for. So if it fails, it's harder to learn from and hold anyone accountable for. Yet, to resolve our procrastination and other hangups (and many problems in life), it seems like finding a common preference is the thing to do (and it seems like it works). But isn't that the same as compromising?
… it seems like finding a common preference is the thing to do …
It is.
… (and it seems like it works).
It usually does.
But isn't that the same as compromising?
No. A common preference is a new option everyone involved prefers to their respective original stance. A compromise is an option they do not prefer, but merely reluctantly agree to. And it’s usually not really new in content but resulted from mechanically mixing existing options. See the article linked in #5301.
#5288·Tyler MillsOP, 8 days agoIt strikes me that I may have some confusion around compromise. There's an idea (from who/where? Gemini says Brett Hall...) that a compromise can actually be bad, because it is a new theory that no one was advocating for. So if it fails, it's harder to learn from and hold anyone accountable for. Yet, to resolve our procrastination and other hangups (and many problems in life), it seems like finding a common preference is the thing to do (and it seems like it works). But isn't that the same as compromising?
… a compromise can actually be bad, because it is a new theory that no one was advocating for.
Compromise is always bad. It’s a form of irrationality.
#5288·Tyler MillsOP, 8 days agoIt strikes me that I may have some confusion around compromise. There's an idea (from who/where? Gemini says Brett Hall...) that a compromise can actually be bad, because it is a new theory that no one was advocating for. So if it fails, it's harder to learn from and hold anyone accountable for. Yet, to resolve our procrastination and other hangups (and many problems in life), it seems like finding a common preference is the thing to do (and it seems like it works). But isn't that the same as compromising?
Gemini says Brett Hall...
No it’s TCS: https://takingchildrenseriously.com/how-is-a-compromise-not-a-real-solution/
Time-release melatonin has solved the backfire problem for me. But I don't want to be dependent on it forever to get a good 8 hours.
Time-release melatonin has solved the backfire problem for me. But I don't want to be dependent on it forever to get a good 8 hours.
#5292·Tyler MillsOP, 8 days agoWell the device may deal with some noisy neighbors, but sure, a criticism overall. Edited.
Not to be nitpicky, especially since you ended up agreeing, but #5234 now has a pending criticism (yours), yet you acted on the idea. (Or rather, on the suggestion implied by it.) Acting on an idea with pending criticisms is technically the definition of irrationality on V.
I’m purposely not marking this a criticism so the flags don’t flip.
#5237·Dennis Hackethal, 13 days agoFound this article illuminating (emphasis mine):
The gradual loss of energy during the day produces a drive to sleep in order to restore that energy. This is known as the homeostatic sleep drive. If the homeostatic process were the only one involved, a person would wake up fully energized and then gradually wind down over the course of the day, like a battery losing power. This would mean an uneven level of alertness during the day, with dangerously low alertness in the afternoon and evening. To counterbalance this, the SCN also regulates alertness by what is known as the circadian process. As the day goes on, and energy winds down, the SCN compensates for this by sending a stronger alertness signal to the brain and body. This alertness signal reaches a peak in the two hours just before bedtime. This zone of maximum alertness is known as the “forbidden zone for sleep” since the alertness signal makes sleep nearly impossible during that zone. When the usual bedtime is reached, the SCN begins to turn down its alertness signal to allow the body to sleep.
The article is on “Non-24-Hour Sleep-Wake Disorder”. I’m obviously no doctor so don’t take anything I say as advice or diagnosis. But from what you’ve said, I wonder if you have that. I think I have the same issue.
The article goes into several causes you could look into. For example, it says exposure to blue light in the morning can help reset one’s internal clock. But that requires a special type of cell on the retina. If those cells don’t work properly, then as far as your internal clock is concerned, you’re effectively blind.
Interesting and disturbing. I still think psychology is the prime suspect for me, though. Runaway thinking. I'll pay more attention going forward, and see if I observe this "alertness signal."
#5244·Benjamin Davies, 12 days agoSomething simple you could try is heavily dimming your computer and other devices and using strong red filters for the last few hours before bed.
Not just the standard night shift features, which are often far too weak. I mean making the screen properly red so that almost all of the blue and green light is removed.
You might be surprised by how dim you can make your devices while still being able to use them fine. You just need to give your eyes a minute to adjust. I routinely have my iPhone and MacBook on their dimmest settings.
Dimming or reddening the room lighting could help too. (Following up on #5243.)
I do use 0% brightness on my monitor and Windows' red night filter at 90% about 90 minutes before getting ready for bed, and I use only a warm-colored lamp. But could do more. Have not messed with the actual monitor color presets (turning off the blue and green channels; not the same thing as the night filter?). No screens at all seems like a smarter habit, which I'll work toward.
#5235·Dennis Hackethal, 13 days agoHave you traveled internationally? I’m thinking specifically of flying west for a large distance.
For example, if I fly to the West coast from central Europe and I land at 12pm say. That’s 9 hours behind Europe. And then I try to stay up until 10pm or so. That’s nearly impossible. I’ve fallen asleep with the lights on.
Would be interesting if you still lay awake for an hour or so even when severely jet lagged.
I have traveled internationally, and I think jetlag is the same as just staying up very late. Both allow for fast time-to-sleep (<30min). I can fall asleep quickly if I've been awake for 19 hours, say. The issue is trying to achieve that time-to-sleep for ~16 hours of awake time.
Interesting. But I would guess it only works well for constant sounds. The sensor has to read the waveform to create one that cancels it. Will not do much for short impulses of sound, which are the main offender (my current neighbors are okay, for the record).
Interesting. But I would guess it only works well for constant sounds. The sensor has to read the waveform to create one that cancels it. Will not do much for short impulses of sound, which are the main offender (my current neighbors are okay, for the record).
Well the device may deal with some noisy neighbors, but sure, a criticism overall. Edited.