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It sounds like the core disagreement is around Lucas’s idea that the concept of correspondence fragments the growth of knowledge: if correspondence is the aim of science but not of other fields, then that means the growth of knowledge works differently in science than in other fields.
#2284·Erik Orrje, 26 days agoGuess: We can generalise economics further and let it be subsumed by epistemology.
When we choose to try to solve certain problems, we always make trade-offs from a place of scarcity. Likewise, our conjectures wouldn't evolve without the competition enabled by scarcity in our minds.
:+1:
#2334·Dennis Hackethal, 24 days agoIn your revision, you asked me to let you know if you are doing things incorrectly.
You can revise ideas the way you did, it’s not wrong per se, but revisions are better for incremental changes. They’re not really meant for taking back criticisms or indicating agreement. If a criticism of yours is successfully counter-criticized and you would like to abandon it, I would just leave it counter-criticized and not revise it further.
If you are looking for a way to indicate agreement (with a counter-criticism, say), it’s something Dirk and I have been discussing offline, see #2169. I hope to implement something to that effect soon.
#2325 serves as an example. I had submitted a criticism which is now outdated and remains counter-criticized. It’s actually better that way because it shows that an error has been corrected, and makes it less likely for others to submit a duplicate criticism.
#2329·Erik Orrje revised 24 days agoMost people (except in Alzheimer's, etc.) don't run out of memory in the brain. The reason most people don’t (permanently) run out memory (of either kind) isn’t that memory isn’t scarce, but that there’s a pruning mechanism in the mind. And there’s competition.
In your revision, you asked me to let you know if you are doing things incorrectly.
You can revise ideas the way you did, it’s not wrong per se, but revisions are better for incremental changes. They’re not really meant for taking back criticisms or indicating agreement. If a criticism of yours is successfully counter-criticized and you would like to abandon it, I would just leave it counter-criticized and not revise it further.
If you are looking for a way to indicate agreement (with a counter-criticism, say), it’s something Dirk and I have been discussing offline, see #2169. I hope to implement something to that effect soon.
#2315·Benjamin Davies, 25 days agoI’m curious btw, how did you hear about Veritula?
I believe I came across it while exploring your blog. My ‘Popperian Wikipedia’ idea was particularly sharp in my mind in that moment, so I was very excited to see how you had set things up here. I think a tremendous amount of it is transferable.
I’m happy to have you and for your contributions, but I have to ask: do you see yourself building a Veritula competitor at some point in the future?
#2325·Dennis Hackethal revised 25 days agoTypo in discussion title: “correspondance” should be ‘correspondence’.
@erik-orrje You (and only you) can update the title here.
Erik has since fixed this typo.
#2322·Benjamin Davies revised 25 days agoI think correspondence is to epistemology as adaptation is to evolution. Knowledge that corresponds more to reality tends to be more useful (and/or has more reach), similar to biological adaptation.
Memes and genes are the same type of knowledge. Since we can "let ideas die in their place", we can make faster iterations and expand the environment to which the idea is adapted (including potentially the whole universe). There's no need for correspondance, just more reach and adaptation across contexts.
Copypasted from your comment now in the revision. Please let me know if I'm doing things incorrectly.
Most people (except in Alzheimer's, etc.) don't run out of memory in the brain. If there's no scarcity for the space of ideas, why do they have to compete?
Most people (except in Alzheimer's, etc.) don't run out of memory in the brain. The reason most people don’t (permanently) run out memory (of either kind) isn’t that memory isn’t scarce, but that there’s a pruning mechanism in the mind. And there’s competition.
Thanks for clarifying! My criticism no longer applies.
Wait, I've probably misunderstood but in #2228 it seemed like you thought pruning was needed for scarcity, which is needed for competition between ideas and their evolution.
And you equated pruning with the meta algorithm.
And now you say the meta algorithm/pruning is not needed for the evolution of ideas?
Thanks for clarifying
Erik Orrje updated discussion ‘Is correspondance true (in CR)?’.
The title changed from ‘Is correspondance true (in CR)?’ to ‘Is correspondence true (in CR)?’.
The ‘About’ section changed as follows:
This thread is based on Lucas Smalldon's talk and article on correspondance: https://barelymorethanatweet.com/. Later Dennis Hackethal followed up with criticism on X: https://x.com/dchackethal/status/1977089334294516124. This is my attempt to continue the discussion here on Veritula.
This thread is based on Lucas Smalldon's talk and article on correspondence: https://barelymorethanatweet.com/. Later Dennis Hackethal followed up with criticism on X: https://x.com/dchackethal/status/1977089334294516124. This is my attempt to continue the discussion here on Veritula.
Typo in discussion title: “correspondance” should be ‘correspondence’.
@erik-orrje You (and only you) can update the title here.
Typo in discussion title: “correspondance” should be ‘correspondence’.
@erik-orrje You (and only you) can update the title here.
Typo in discussion title: “correspondance” should be ‘correspondence’.
@erik-orrje You (and only you) can update the title here.
I think correspondence is to epistemology as adaptation is to evolution. Knowledge that corresponds more to reality tends to be more useful (and with more reach), similar to biological adaptation.
I think correspondence is to epistemology as adaptation is to evolution. Knowledge that corresponds more to reality tends to be more useful (and/or has more reach), similar to biological adaptation.
#2320·Erik OrrjeOP, 25 days agoCR is an evolutionary theory. There's no need for correspondence in Darwinism. Therefore, we don't need it in CR either.
I think correspondence is to epistemology as adaptation is to evolution. Knowledge that corresponds more to reality tends to be more useful (and with more reach), similar to biological adaptation.
CR is an evolutionary theory. There's no need for correspondence in Darwinism. Therefore, we don't need it in CR either.
This thread is based on Lucas Smalldon's talk and article on correspondance: https://barelymorethanatweet.com/. Later Dennis Hackethal followed up with criticism on X: https://x.com/dchackethal/status/1977089334294516124. This is my attempt to continue the discussion here on Veritula.
Benjamin Davies updated discussion ‘Choosing a place to live’.
The ‘About’ section changed as follows:
I am approaching a point in my life where I will soon be able to freely choose where in the world I live (from a financial perspective). I want to discuss various criteria for criticising different places. I am currently a citizen of New Zealand and Britain.
I am approaching a point in my life where I will soon have the financial freedom to choose where in the world I live. I want to discuss various criteria for criticising different places. I am currently a citizen of New Zealand and Britain.
Benjamin Davies updated discussion ‘Choosing a place to live’.
The ‘About’ section changed as follows:
I am progressing in my career to the point where I am approaching the level of financial freedom required to be free to choose where in the world to live. I want to discuss various criteria for criticising different places. I am currently a citizen of New Zealand and Britain.
I am approaching a point in my life where I will soon be able to freely choose where in the world I live (from a financial perspective). I want to discuss various criteria for criticising different places. I am currently a citizen of New Zealand and Britain.
#2318·Benjamin DaviesOP, 25 days agoUsing my true name here causes me to take more care in what I write. I’m not hiding behind an identity I can discard.
This may make it harder for me to discuss sensitive topics (e.g. navigating personal relationships, health issues, etc.) since it may reveal things to people who know me personally, things that I may wish to keep to myself, that I would only discuss online behind a pseudonym.
Using my true name here causes me to take more care in what I write. I’m not hiding behind an identity I can discard.
People often say there are safety issues involved in using your true name online.
When signing up to Veritula, we are all asked to use our true first and last names. I would like to discuss using true names online, not only on Veritula but on other social media too. This is not something I have thought about much. I currently use pseudonyms everywhere except Instagram/FB and Veritula.
@dennis-hackethal Please share your reasoning for your request that Veritula users use their true names.
#2311·Dennis HackethalOP, 25 days agoWould it be possible / worth it to produce a competitor to Wikipedia based on Popperian epistemology?
Yes, sure.
The idea of having a Wikipedia equivalent that presents high quality competing articles detailing different alternative explanations for things (with some sort of versioning and methods of criticism) excites me greatly.
Me, too. I think Veritula’s design allows for this pretty naturally since the topic of a discussion can be general enough for various competing ideas to be posted in the discussion.
We ‘just’ need to get more users. As I wrote in #628, posting a breaking news story could work. If users submit ideas on events as they unfold and then criticize those ideas, visitors see what’s happening at a glance. It could be easier for them to know which ideas they can adopt than on conventional news channels or even Wikipedia, IMO.
There are also ‘timeless’ debates that have been going on for decades where Veritula can offer clarity. Like on the abortion debate. People shouldn’t have to keep debating that over and over when it’s a matter where objective truth can be found and then acted on.
I have thought of producing something like this myself, which was part of what drew me to Veritula.
I’m curious btw, how did you hear about Veritula?
I’m curious btw, how did you hear about Veritula?
I believe I came across it while exploring your blog. My ‘Popperian Wikipedia’ idea was particularly sharp in my mind in that moment, so I was very excited to see how you had set things up here. I think a tremendous amount of it is transferable.